stillshunter
a man of resolve, a man of conviction
State Convenor - ACT
Group Buy Associate
2015 Sabbatical Fail
....and you gloat about this as a mod. What a sad, sad day....
(added a couple extra to get @Drubbing attention too)
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Coticules
- Thread starter khun_diddy
- Start date
(added a couple extra to get @Drubbing attention too)
Mark1966
Canberra dwelling Happy Clapping Bean Counter
Staff member
Site Moderator
Grand Society
2016 Sabbatical Fail
2018 Charity Auction Winner
2019 Charity Auction Winner
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stillshunter
a man of resolve, a man of conviction
State Convenor - ACT
Group Buy Associate
2015 Sabbatical Fail
Touche.
Still undecided as to whether I'm grabbing the Le Dressante or another JNat...or whether the la dressante is the right 'first' coticule. It's a minefield out there...just ask the simple question "What is the best first coticule to buy?"....and it's like I'm asking what's the best razor or what's the best soap. Opinions abound!! Why can't there just be a "right" answer....there is with JNats - a honyama (lvl 5) and asano nagura from @Mark
borked
Shave, collect B&M pokemon, vodka, sleep, repeat
Grand Society
Group Buy Associate
Da Menth Heads
2018 Charity Auction Winner
Ahh, yet have you tried other Jnats to know they're fulfilling your desires fully, or are you subconsciously missing out upon a part of the experience?Touche.
Still undecided as to whether I'm grabbing the Le Dressante or another JNat...or whether the la dressante is the right 'first' coticule. It's a minefield out there...just ask the simple question "What is the best first coticule to buy?"....and it's like I'm asking what's the best razor or what's the best soap. Opinions abound!! Why can't there just be a "right" answer....there is with JNats - a honyama (lvl 5) and asano nagura from @Mark
bald as
ARKO! dealer & walking ECG
I have a set of Arkansas oil stones on the way @stillshunter. I tried a very fine oil stone to finish a razor the other day and the edge is really nice, felt very smooth. Not a coti mind you but close to being on topic. Sought of 
I've been eyeing off a translucent Arkie of late actually so can't wait to see the new stone.I have a set of Arkansas oil stones on the way @stillshunter. I tried a very fine oil stone to finish a razor the other day and the edge is really nice, felt very smooth. Not a coti mind you but close to being on topic. Sought of
bald as
ARKO! dealer & walking ECG
@khun_diddy, between us with the variety of stones we have we should eventually be able to get a good edge on a blade 
stillshunter
a man of resolve, a man of conviction
State Convenor - ACT
Group Buy Associate
2015 Sabbatical Fail
A very interesting quote from a very interesting article:
Japanese natural stones give a similarly-rewarding process as do coticules, and are in this opinion routinely keener. But they also produce an edge I'd equate a little closer with hyper-sharp artificial stones; entirely devoid of 'skin friction' beyond any coticule I've felt I've mastered (including the preferred "office pig" which has now seen >3000 blades, nothing more I can learn from it), but more capable of slicing away microscopic variances in skin topography. Coticules specialize in an edge that, while not as pretty as from waterstones or as keen as from stropping on diamond sprays/plastic sheets, "cuts hair but not skin". For that relaxed position, I feel that one must accept a higher friction coefficient (read; A DULLER BLADE) and the accompanying reduction in capacity to sever-remember, hair follicles (but not all SKIN) want ever-sharper edges, and if too dull for your follicle you'll get redness at the root of each follicle. Too intense an exfoliation of skin, however, will also give an uncomfy post-shave redness for an entirely different reason, and thus we aim to balance the two (and I pity those poor souls with barbed-wire follicles surrounded by the tenderest of skin). Coticules aren't magic; measuring the average deviation of the striations upon the bevel planes and of the line that represents their intersection (aka the 'edge'), they're summarily outclassed by many honing options! But the coti, any coti I've tried for that matter, can get the edge down to below 1 micron, which isn't bad, and that edge will behave as trustworthy and familiar as an old pair of jeans, with a comparatively enormous variance in what you must do to cut yourself or cut the hairs. Does this mean you'll never wish to chase more keenness beyond coticules' capacities? "No" is the answer for many, as everyone's need for keenness to cut their hairs cleanly but without exfoliating too intensely is different (please explain this concept to the "no such thing as too sharp a blade" crowd the next time you have their unbiased ear). I tend to think those with the worst beards combined with durable skin are better off with solutions produced by man, though many of them do find cotis sharp enough to shave very well, and those with average beards and any level of skin are almost universally going to enjoy a coticule.
Japanese natural stones give a similarly-rewarding process as do coticules, and are in this opinion routinely keener. But they also produce an edge I'd equate a little closer with hyper-sharp artificial stones; entirely devoid of 'skin friction' beyond any coticule I've felt I've mastered (including the preferred "office pig" which has now seen >3000 blades, nothing more I can learn from it), but more capable of slicing away microscopic variances in skin topography. Coticules specialize in an edge that, while not as pretty as from waterstones or as keen as from stropping on diamond sprays/plastic sheets, "cuts hair but not skin". For that relaxed position, I feel that one must accept a higher friction coefficient (read; A DULLER BLADE) and the accompanying reduction in capacity to sever-remember, hair follicles (but not all SKIN) want ever-sharper edges, and if too dull for your follicle you'll get redness at the root of each follicle. Too intense an exfoliation of skin, however, will also give an uncomfy post-shave redness for an entirely different reason, and thus we aim to balance the two (and I pity those poor souls with barbed-wire follicles surrounded by the tenderest of skin). Coticules aren't magic; measuring the average deviation of the striations upon the bevel planes and of the line that represents their intersection (aka the 'edge'), they're summarily outclassed by many honing options! But the coti, any coti I've tried for that matter, can get the edge down to below 1 micron, which isn't bad, and that edge will behave as trustworthy and familiar as an old pair of jeans, with a comparatively enormous variance in what you must do to cut yourself or cut the hairs. Does this mean you'll never wish to chase more keenness beyond coticules' capacities? "No" is the answer for many, as everyone's need for keenness to cut their hairs cleanly but without exfoliating too intensely is different (please explain this concept to the "no such thing as too sharp a blade" crowd the next time you have their unbiased ear). I tend to think those with the worst beards combined with durable skin are better off with solutions produced by man, though many of them do find cotis sharp enough to shave very well, and those with average beards and any level of skin are almost universally going to enjoy a coticule.
As I say, my interest is piqued.
stillshunter
a man of resolve, a man of conviction
State Convenor - ACT
Group Buy Associate
2015 Sabbatical Fail
I wouldn't go that far mate....Sounds like the Feather vs Derby blade argument.
I shudder whenever I remember just how bad Derbys were.
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bald as
ARKO! dealer & walking ECG
@stillshunter I agree it is extreme but look on SRP or one of the other forums and in a way it is just like that. I often wonder if the average punter could pick what stone honed what razor. I'm learning there is so much that each blade/steel contributes as well - probably as much or more in some cases than the stones used to hone/finish on.
Just to throw another rock in the pond I've done my last razor on my C-nat with OIL - OIL for goodness sakes as my final finisher. So old school - so smooth - so keen - so unique. The Cnat is so hard it is not taking up masses of oil, besides I have both sides lapped. One for water and now one for oil. Straight dish washing detergent cleans the stone very quickly.
My Arkies arrive in about 2 weeks so I will be able to go razor from after bevel to face on the Arkies with oil. I've heard they are slow but I'm not doing things for a commercial purpose so time spent is only for me. I do believe lapping an Arkansas makes the effort to lap a C12K seem like lapping butter. So it may be a while before I can use them given the time to lap them.
People do say similar about some shave ready razors that doesn't suit their skin or experience. They don't call them Derbies but the same underlying comparison is there. Instead of naming blade brands it is often blame the edge created by stone "x". My first straight was one of Mark's GD66. Initially I thought it was terrible, it grabbed and skipped etc. It wasn't the honing or the stones [Jnats I presume], it was my lack of experience. I have not done a thing to it other than strop it and it shaves very well. Is it better than a razor I have finished on my C12k with slurry to water or C12k with oil. My face would say no - just a simple statement as my face doesn't know a Jnat from a Cnat from a Coti to an Arkie.
I like a really keen smooth edge so probably wouldn't be happy with a Coti edge, but hey who knows. I may very well shave with one one day without being any the wiser and love it.
Just to throw another rock in the pond
I've done my last razor on my C-nat with OIL - OIL for goodness sakes as my final finisher. So old school - so smooth - so keen - so unique. The Cnat is so hard it is not taking up masses of oil, besides I have both sides lapped. One for water and now one for oil. Straight dish washing detergent cleans the stone very quickly. My Arkies arrive in about 2 weeks so I will be able to go razor from after bevel to face on the Arkies with oil. I've heard they are slow but I'm not doing things for a commercial purpose so time spent is only for me. I do believe lapping an Arkansas makes the effort to lap a C12K seem like lapping butter. So it may be a while before I can use them given the time to lap them.
People do say similar about some shave ready razors that doesn't suit their skin or experience. They don't call them Derbies but the same underlying comparison is there. Instead of naming blade brands it is often blame the edge created by stone "x". My first straight was one of Mark's GD66. Initially I thought it was terrible, it grabbed and skipped etc. It wasn't the honing or the stones [Jnats I presume], it was my lack of experience. I have not done a thing to it other than strop it and it shaves very well. Is it better than a razor I have finished on my C12k with slurry to water or C12k with oil. My face would say no - just a simple statement as my face doesn't know a Jnat from a Cnat from a Coti to an Arkie.
I like a really keen smooth edge so probably wouldn't be happy with a Coti edge, but hey who knows. I may very well shave with one one day without being any the wiser and love it.
stillshunter
a man of resolve, a man of conviction
State Convenor - ACT
Group Buy Associate
2015 Sabbatical Fail
We all like a keen smooth edge mate.I like a really keen smooth edge so probably wouldn't be happy with a Coti edge, but hey who knows. I may very well shave with one one day without being any the wiser and love it.
My beard is quite coarse and very thick, the stubble is like copper wire. I wouldn't call my skin sensitive per se, but it will react badly to excessive oil and drying out. So it can be a challenge in some places. Based on these facts alone, JNat is the answer. And it may well be. But a recent inadvertent blind test finds me wondering. I recently invested in a high-risk buy of an unknown "Golden Rod" razor. The only thing I had to rely on was that it was a Solingen...and the seller saying that if I liked my Fili-13 and Friodur-472 that I'd like this 'sleeper' (as he called it). Well the proof's in the pudding and so I shaved with it and it gave an absolutely fantastic shave - very smooth and very forgiving! Of course I probed the seller about the edge and he said "that was my regular progression, a LPB coti, then finished on a La Verte."
So, now I am more than mildly curious.
bald as
ARKO! dealer & walking ECG
That is actually in a very practical way exactly what I was alluding to. We are so luck we have a variety to choose from and some actually have them to use.
stillshunter
a man of resolve, a man of conviction
State Convenor - ACT
Group Buy Associate
2015 Sabbatical Fail
I hear you mate.
'Different strokes for different folks". But in addition, although I very much value the opinion of those I respect I also have that stubborn streak that needs to test things out for myself.
I have a reasonable synthetic line-up
I have a reasonable jnat line-up
Now maybe a reasonable coti
...and some reasonable time testing different strokes on different stones on different steel..
Just not quite sure it ends with jnats for me. Well not until I cancel another couple of options out anyway
...and anyway what would be fun in that?
bald as
ARKO! dealer & walking ECG
Ideally for me I set a bevel on a 1k then use a cheap 3k to create a slurry on my Cnat, work that adding water then wash the stone and blade and create a slurry with the other side [8k] cheap synthetic working that and adding water, wash then a slurry with a cheap 10k synthetic on the Cnat finally a slurry with actual Cnat slurry stone and work that to water. The Cnat is so hard none of the synthetic do anything to the surface. After the 10k I wash the stone and dry it off and turn it over and add a few drops of oil and finish with 100 or whatever is needed finishing laps. Then linen and leather. Mine is a hybrid system that works for me. If @khun_diddy eventually gets a Coti I will have to see if I can try it with one of my known blades. Perhaps an Arkie trade for a weekend.
I'll defo be getting one.
stillshunter
a man of resolve, a man of conviction
State Convenor - ACT
Group Buy Associate
2015 Sabbatical Fail
So am I mate! So am I!
Shall we commit to documenting our journey on here as we take each little step forward with our new Belgian stones? Keen if you are...
stillshunter
a man of resolve, a man of conviction
State Convenor - ACT
Group Buy Associate
2015 Sabbatical Fail
Mail Call
Have a decent synthetic line up and a great little JNat progression. Now to try Cotis. My La Dressente #10 bote arrived today. First hone tomorrow.
Also scored a nice 2" flax linen strip in this parcel. Will piece together a linen strop tomorrow too.
Have a decent synthetic line up and a great little JNat progression. Now to try Cotis. My La Dressente #10 bote arrived today. First hone tomorrow.
Also scored a nice 2" flax linen strip in this parcel. Will piece together a linen strop tomorrow too.
Can't wait to see how you fare with it.