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What should I see coming off the 4k?

Laurens

Laurens

Member
Over the past few months I have been trying to get my razors to shave. No success. The best I have come up with is the odd razor which can shave at a segment usually the toe or the middle portion of the blade nothing else. Even then it is not the best edge I have shaved with compared to blades honed by others. The big issue for me is not knowing when I am done with the 4k norton. I have been spending time looking at the bevel with my loupe. I have watched many videos on youtube which has people being able to look at the edge under a microscope and know that its time to move on. Unfortunately these people haven't explained or better yet shown what I should see to show that I should move onto the 8k. Can anyone tell me what I should be looking for It would be greatly appreciated!
 
WARNING!! Noob giving advice..

It is time to move on when the scratches made by the previous stone are completely erased. If there is even a faint shadow, that groove will be present in the edge as a notch which manifests as harshness. Moving from one grade to another is simply making the scratches (notches in the edge) smaller and smaller. Moving on too soon you are left with notches that won't be erased by the higher stone.

Check the blade isn't warped. EG The bevel is wide at the toe, thin in the middle, wide at the heel, and opposite on the other side - you won't get that puppy shaving without some serious hone mastery with rolling x strokes on one side and pushing the centre on the other side. Has that blade been honed to a good edge by someone else? I might be worth getting the blade to someone to hone for you, and check for issues. Then you can use it, and know what to aim for with that steel. Then blunt the edge and hone yourself.

I can get a blade to sharp, but not comfortable. Crox has helped in the comfort stakes but it shouldn't been needed with my stone. The honemeister that sold me the stone gave me directions including a target number of strokes. I do not come close to getting a result with that number (20-30). I have been using more like 100 - 150. I think it just comes down to practice, getting the pressure on the blade right, getting it even, and uniform throughout the stroke on the hone.

I have a blade that I honed up to scary sharp but harsh. I dulled the edge and started on the 1k again, this time I had issues with the toe and heel that I did not have the first time around so it can only come down to my technique. I got it shaving pretty good in the end though but not before some agro that shouldn't have been required.

HTH....
 
@Laurens if you are not having success it is more than likely that you don't have a fully set bevel. The bevel is everything. No bevel - no good.
Get a texta and black the bevel on both sides and do 4 normal strokes on your 4k then examine the edge under a loupe. any black on the apex anywhere along the blade and the bevel is not set. Do you have a 1k bevel setter?
Steve
 
bald as yes I do have the 1k naniwa which I much prefer to my norton 1k I started my journey with. Having read the importance of setting the bevel I did earlier on think that I hadn't spent enough time on the 1k however the fact that I have been able to get the odd heal, toe or middle portion to shave means that I have set the bevel, at least at one point along the blade! And since I started using the TNT I can tell if at the 1k level if a blade has spots not up to scratch along the edge.

One issue which I haven't read others have with the popular gold dollar blades is that all my gold dollar blades are smiling which adds another level of difficulty to the learning process. Is this the experience with the rest of you? I obviously would prefer to spend all my time learning on my gold dollars than on my nice razors as Im sure you can all understand but this really does complicate something I am going out of my way to simplify as much as possible. I have spent many hours on my gold dollars with the rolling x strokes but always end up with an edge which is not even. Are the more expensive gold dollars less likely to be smiling?

Sxot appreciate the input. Are you able to look at an edge under microscope and tell if its done at the 4k level? Whenever I look with my loupe or electric microscope I am unable to tell which scratches are the ones which need to go. It is something which is left out of a lot of the instructional videos on youtube. Every now and again somebody will show photos with an electron microscope but that of course is not of any use to me! I can certainly see the scratch pattern change but when is the 4k done with is what I have not come close to grasping.
 
As you change from one stone to the next do between 10 - 20 laps on on water on whatever stone you are leaving at just the weight of the blade before going to the next stone. Reduce the pressure as you progress but remember steel does require some pressure to remove it. Just don't stand on the blade type pressure. By the finishing hone you are no longer removing major amounts of metal. Each step up must replace the majority of the scratches from the previous stone with it's own as you refine the blade. @Mark has some good videos demonstrating stones of various types but the big take away for me is the pressure control.
 
The Gold Dollars are a real challenge mate, have you ground the heel/stabiliser down to really set the bevel?

I assume you've already seen this but Dr. Matt's video on the bevel offers some good insights on getting those very fundamentals right.


Can't stress what others have said enough. Bevel setting is all. Everything that follows is simply polishing. Get the bevel right all the way along and then go through the progression to your chosen finish. For me, and my gorgeous face, you cannot shave off 4k. Of course if the bevel is set you can, but not with any semblance of comfort. You need to end on the equivalent of 8k at a very minimum. For me it's normally a matter of setting the bevel, joining the edge, then to the coticules - slurry then to water through dilutions - sometimes through a progression of stones. If it's steel that appreciates it then it's a JNat progression. But often I find most my steel and my skin prefers the coticule edge.

Do you have a scope so you can share your edges with us?
 
Laurens said:
Sxot appreciate the input. Are you able to look at an edge under microscope and tell if its done at the 4k level? Whenever I look with my loupe or electric microscope I am unable to tell which scratches are the ones which need to go. It is something which is left out of a lot of the instructional videos on youtube. Every now and again somebody will show photos with an electron microscope but that of course is not of any use to me! I can certainly see the scratch pattern change but when is the 4k done with is what I have not come close to grasping.
Click to expand...

What you want to do is use a slightly different angle (more or less heel leading) so you can easily see which are 1k, and which are 4k scratches.

Some thoughts (don't forget I
I read GD's aren't the best to learn on because they have issue requiring advanced techniques as you have discovered. Apparently the ZY 430 is a better option.
I agree with Stills. Are you 100% sure the bevel is set for the full length? Arm hair shave, tomato cutting, thumb nail, scope showing scratches all the way to the edge etc should help you decide that. Getting nice undercut full width of the blade?
If you have smile, why not bread knife it to remove it and try from there since it's a GD who cares right?
Maybe the blade is warped? If so it's too advanced for you to contemplate honing.
 
Sxot said:
What you want to do is use a slightly different angle (more or less heel leading) so you can easily see which are 1k, and which are 4k scratches.

Some thoughts (don't forget I
I read GD's aren't the best to learn on because they have issue requiring advanced techniques as you have discovered. Apparently the ZY 430 is a better option.
I agree with Stills. Are you 100% sure the bevel is set for the full length? Arm hair shave, tomato cutting, thumb nail, scope showing scratches all the way to the edge etc should help you decide that. Getting nice undercut full width of the blade?
If you have smile, why not bread knife it to remove it and try from there since it's a GD who cares right?
Maybe the blade is warped? If so it's too advanced for you to contemplate honing.
Click to expand...

If it is a smiling blade, why not learn how to hone it properly?
 
I don't look. The loupe/microscope isn't even a part of my kit.

The proof for me is if it shaves. If not, I go back to the start. It is satisfying when that edge comes, and your forearm is suddenly bald!

This definitely starts at the 1k, setting your edge (bevel). Without it, you are wasting your time moving on to the next stone. As @Sxot has mentioned, you will eventually get down under 50 laps per stone, but you don't have to get there right away.

What @bald as has said is correct. Mark your bevel with a sharpie, and do a couple of passes with minimal pressure. See what remains. It is a great tell, but is so simple.

Minimal pressure is important, too. If you are getting odd-shaped edges, then it sounds like too much pressure is being applied in specific places. The metal on these blades is really soft, and it takes little work to set or damage an edge. If hair on your face can dull them...

Don't give up. You will get it, and from there onwards it is the easiest thing to maintain your edge.

Also, don't forget about the strop in all of this. It is an important part of the finishing of your hone, and pre- and post-shave. Again, just the weight of the blade, no exaggerated swipes.
 
Arnold J Rimmer said:
I don't look. The loupe/microscope isn't even a part of my kit.
Click to expand...
Have to agree. I am by no-means an expert but since the batteries went flat in my loupe I've been loupe'less, is that just loopy and getting better results. Instead of concentrating on a polished edge I'm just trying to get a shaving edge and I find this much faster. I repeat: I'm no guru and I'm after a shaving edge. Works for me.
 
All my observations
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Black marker: Allows me to see without question where the edge is actually contacting the hone. I can then determine if I need to restore the spine edge relationship with "remedial" honing or if it is a fancy spine whether tape will be needed. I recently had a very old Bengall that refused to meet at the heel and black marker over about 10 minutes of work on the shoulder and spine got the edge of the edge from heel to toe.

TPT: I have never been able to dial this test in with any consistency. I usually run out of skin first.
smiley.png


TNT: I always use this test. Nail must be wet - razor at 90 degrees - razor weight only. Any area of the blade the edge slides doing this test and that area does not have a set bevel. This is a destructive edge test but doesn't harm your thumb nail. 5-10 gentle laps on the 1k will restore the bevel. When confident the bevel is meeting the full length of edge I do a minimum 10 extremely light final strokes on the 1k to provide best edge for the next hone. At all stages I use my 60x loupe to check for bevel integrity - chips foil etc.

Arm hair: I ran out of that along time ago.

Edge reflection: The blade must be super clean and your eyes must still work well. A set of 1 -3 power reading glasses are very useful. Hold the bevel directly under the light [as close as possible] with the bevel facing straight up and look for any reflection on the bevel. I find this useful with finer hones as well as it can identify very small areas of the blade without a true bevel set. What do they say about polishing a t##d?

The Loupe: This is invaluable as it allows me to see all of the above tests and more. I have 2, a 30x and a 60x and prefer the 60x for most honing. My edges do look better though at 30x
smiley.png


Steve
 
I'm giving all of this a test tomorrow. First attempt. Hope it isn't too disastrous.
 
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First attempt at honing today. Did not use tape. Razor was honed by previous owner using tape on the spine. I'm wanting to hone without tape. My lowest grit stone is Shapton glass 4k.
Having all these factors against me (first attempt, previously taped razor, high grit stone), I wasn't expecting great success but this is where I'm at & what I have to work with.
My question is will I ever get this razor shaveable or do I HAVE to get a coarser stone or start with a new (tapeless) razor?
 
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I will argue that you should use tape while learning rather than grinding you spine away while learning the ropes.
Once you have leant the pressure and strokes require to hone then progress to a bare razor

The 4K will set the bevel from 1 layer of tape for sure, but it is all just a matter of strokes or hours more the point
Eg 1k is 4 times quicker than a 4K on the same type of stone
So 100 strokes on the relates to 400 on the 4K
But you need the number of correctly executed strokes and the pressure to suit
To much pressure can cause a site edge or deformation of the edge while honing
Try some slurry it will help cut faster also then dilute to clean water once the bevel set again
 
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