Knot comparison

[Rami]

is there a spreadsheet that compares different knot characteristics?

I know it’s subjective but I am leery of doing further spending just to find out.

 

[Snooze]

@Mark1966 ... did someone say "spreadsheet"

 

[Mark1966]

is there a spreadsheet that compares different knot characteristics?

I know it’s subjective but I am leery of doing further spending just to find out.

If there isn’t - there should be!

 

[Drubbing]

If there isn’t - there should be!

No there shouldn't.

is there a spreadsheet that compares different knot characteristics?

I know it’s subjective but I am leery of doing further spending just to find out.

Answered your own question.

 

[todras]

Declaration, Morris & Forndran or Paladin make up a majority of my collection for the top end of things. Simpson in the Chubby 2 or 3 SB or above at a pinch, however the former three are edging out Simpson with their knots, design and performance now days especially when you figure in the premium price for the Simpson name. There are a lot of new brush makers entering the business, most of them set their knots with terrible loft and rely on the same two or three Chinese knot wholesalers or online retail outlets and I have found their actual design is usually dismal to.

Go for 28mm and above, anything else and you are just messing around. Look to pay north of $285 AUD per brush if you can get them in the first place, most of the really good brushes in my collection are LE's that drop and sell out within hours.The various BST's are a great place to acquire top end brushes, the secret is to do your reading, know what you want, have the funds available and move instantly as they sell as fast if not faster than when they drop originally..

There is little point creating a spreadsheet, knots change from batch to batch with the high end brushes. The best source of information is to be found on forums/FB from the people that actually own, use, buy and sell them rather than from previously accepted sources of wisdom who are invariably stuck in the past with dated, largely useless advice and opinion. There are a fair few notable brush collectors around, they are easy to spot as they regularly post pictures of their brushes and provide solid and reliable information on what's good with the top end of town.

Good Luck!

 

[Mark1966]

...
There is little point creating a spreadsheet ...

Heretic!

 

[Rami]

@todras

Totally agree. I have a paladin and a Morris and forndan. And I like them both, the M&F has this density/backbone that I really like. So much so I got a couple more on the way.

However I am curious about the other 2 hence the question

 

[nsavage]

Declaration, Morris & Forndran or Paladin make up a majority of my collection for the top end of things. Simpson in the Chubby 2 or 3 SB or above at a pinch, however the former three are edging out Simpson with their knots, design and performance now days especially when you figure in the premium price for the Simpson name. There are a lot of new brush makers entering the business, most of them set their knots with terrible loft and rely on the same two or three Chinese knot wholesalers or online retail outlets and I have found their actual design is usually dismal to.

Go for 28mm and above, anything else and you are just messing around. Look to pay north of $285 AUD per brush if you can get them in the first place, most of the really good brushes in my collection are LE's that drop and sell out within hours.The various BST's are a great place to acquire top end brushes, the secret is to do your reading, know what you want, have the funds available and move instantly as they sell as fast if not faster than when they drop originally..

There is little point creating a spreadsheet, knots change from batch to batch with the high end brushes. The best source of information is to be found on forums/FB from the people that actually own, use, buy and sell them rather than from previously accepted sources of wisdom who are invariably stuck in the past with dated, largely useless advice and opinion. There are a fair few notable brush collectors around, they are easy to spot as they regularly post pictures of their brushes and provide solid and reliable information on what's good with the top end of town.

Good Luck!

^^^ This for the most part.

However you don't have to go LE to get a good knot. Paladin do very few LE releases and so far the only difference has been the handle itself and not the knot. If you want a Paladin with an M&F knot however that is a different story as they are no longer being produced. For my money Paladin edge out M&F in terms of quality and finish. The M&F finest knots are very nice but I would struggle to recommend them over the Paladin at the price that is currently being asked for an M&F brush.

Declaration knots are in a class of their own. You don;t have to wait for an LE release or glue yourself to the BST's to get one though. Simply contact a handle maker of your choosing (I highly recommend Doug Korn) and also contact Scott at L&L Grooming (I think that is what his business is called now). When the handle is made have it sent to Scott and he hand ties a knot specifically to suit your handle. No difference in the knot against the LE releases but potentially considerably cheaper as well.

Simpsons I have not bothered with to date. They appear to be priced above what the current market dictates in my personal opinion.

 

[todras]

However you don't have to go LE to get a good knot. Paladin do very few LE releases and so far the only difference has been the handle itself and not the knot. If you want a Paladin with an M&F knot however that is a different story as they are no longer being produced. For my money Paladin edge out M&F in terms of quality and finish. The M&F finest knots are very nice but I would struggle to recommend them over the Paladin at the price that is currently being asked for an M&F brush.

For the most part this is correct, however the difference between a good knot and a great knot is large - probably a bit elitist and snobbish, but if you get serious about brush collecting you find yourself at this point. I think Paladins and M&F are two very different beasts and certainly with very different knots. I do know that there are finishing issues with the modern M&F brushes (the multi-coloured resins) and you have shown me them first hand however I can't stand multi coloured brushes as I believe they are an affront to common decency and a serious threat to common morality and standards.

Declaration knots are in a class of their own. You don;t have to wait for an LE release or glue yourself to the BST's to get one though. Simply contact a handle maker of your choosing (I highly recommend Doug Korn) and also contact Scott at L&L Grooming (I think that is what his business is called now).

Declaration Grooming he is rolling as now, the B2 knots offered in the white bone coloured Franklin, Theodore and Jefferson initial release were part of LE series and are no longer available. His more recent knots are still excellent, but the B2's are what defines his work and are the most sort after, these you will need to comb the BST's for and they go in minutes if not seconds. Another example of a LE declaration was the recent 'Blood of Kings' series, again, limited and very sort after brushes that sold out in an instant.

Paladin have two current LE releases, the Churchill and the WC-XL in addition to the previous London/Kansas series which are also a highly collectable Limited Edition/Special Edition releases.

 

[Rami]

@todras

What is your personal opinion on declaration knot vs M&F vs paladin.

I am not too fussed handle wise.

 

[todras]

@todras

What is your personal opinion on declaration knot vs M&F vs paladin.

I am not too fussed handle wise.

Personally I think they are three different knots, supplied by three different brush makers and beyond that I have no real opinion. You would have to use them to form your own opinion based on your experience and situation.

 

[nsavage]

I can't stand multi coloured brushes as I believe they are an affront to common decency and a serious threat to common morality and standards.

Are you pork chopping me?

the B2's are what defines his work and are the most sort after, these you will need to comb the BST's for and they go in minutes if not seconds.

I concede and agree on this point. That said however if you are looking at current knots they are the same whether LE or not.

Paladin have two current LE releases, the Churchill and the WC-XL

The handles are nice but the knots are the same as their normal releases. Also the handles are too plain for my tastes. In regards to the WC-XL they have a 30mm knot which is simply downright massive and a crazy size, remember anything aver 21mm is ridiculous and much too big.

 

[Mark1966]

...I can't stand multi coloured brushes as I believe they are an affront to common decency and a serious threat to common morality and standards....

Here, here!

 

[Ross]

Ok I have been reading this intently and have had this question in my mind for some time now is there that much difference between a very expensive brush and say a $40 badger taking out the “everyone’s mileage is differant “ factor . I am happy with what I use now but is there a nirvana ?
Or is it an every evolving thing has you get further down the rabbit hole and more proficient at it so you require to acquire more refined equipment !

 

[Rami]

Or is it an every evolving thing has you get further down the rabbit hole and more proficient at it so you require to acquire more refined equipment !

for me. I started with 40 $ brushes and now have few expensive ones. The 40 $ brush does a reasonable job. But the more expensive ones have a more luxury experience, it feels better on the face. That’s where subjective YMMV come in, different people have different sensations and different preferences. I like backbone and I like mashing the knot to my face so dense knots are always a plus. Not too fussed about the handle. You may have completely different preferences.

Here, here!

What about more natural material that happens to be colourful?

 

[Korbz]

Ok I have been reading this intently and have had this question in my mind for some time now is there that much difference between a very expensive brush and say a $40 badger taking out the “everyone’s mileage is differant “ factor . I am happy with what I use now but is there a nirvana ?
Or is it an every evolving thing has you get further down the rabbit hole and more proficient at it so you require to acquire more refined equipment !

They all produce the same quality lather. It’s the journey that’s different (for some). IMHO, there are subtle differences, but the real advantage spending >$200 on a brush is customisation. You get the opportunity to discuss lofts, blank colours and handle shapes, etc. There’s also the experience you’re paying for with the artisans and the knowledge of how to set the knots.

Then there’s the handles. Why spend that much on a plain butterscotch blank lol. If that floats your boat sweet, but I like to let the artisan be a little creative. If people didn’t push boundaries, we’d still be stuck thinking 21mm was a huge knot

 

[Drubbing]

Ok I have been reading this intently and have had this question in my mind for some time now is there that much difference between a very expensive brush and say a $40 badger taking out the “everyone’s mileage is differant “ factor . I am happy with what I use now but is there a nirvana ?
Or is it an every evolving thing has you get further down the rabbit hole and more proficient at it so you require to acquire more refined equipment !

Basically with expensive badgers you're paying for the best quality (soft) hair, and lots of it, to provide density. Plus the cost of making and turning a bespoke handle. It's the realm of lower volumes where you have something less ordinary, and you can spec it yourself. And you pay for it.

I ditched buying badgers a few years ago when the latest synths demonstrably out performed them. The subjectivity of feel and exclusivity isn't of any interest to me.

 

[Olie29]

can't stand multi coloured brushes as I believe they are an affront to common decency and a serious threat to common morality and standards.

Lol you would never make a successful artist, there are no rules and no standards it’s all about thinking outside of the box. Don’t get me wrong I can appreciate the more traditional styles but how boring would that be if that’s all we had, I don’t believe the wet shaving community would have grown so popular like it has if nobody could see outside of that box !

 

[alfredus]

@todras

What is your personal opinion on declaration knot vs M&F vs paladin.

I am not too fussed handle wise.

Paladin knots work - for me they are the brush I could use every day. If you haven't had the pleasure of a great brush, Paladins would be my first recommendation. Luxurious, great flow through, easy to lather.

M&F knots (at least the finest I've seen) are backbone Kings due to the stiffness/thickness of the hair. They eat through soap and you can lather rocks with them. They have the biggest "face feel".

Declaration are super dense and luxurious. They need some work, because they need a lot of product and they are very greedy and don't like to give up lather - not that it matters, because you have way too much any way.

I have all three and the last one I used before a 3 week break from badgers was my Declaration, because I love it's luxurious feel. But if I had to choose only one, I'd definitely go with Ken & Cody's brushes - as I said they all just work beautifully for me.

At the end of the day, you'd have to try to know for sure...

 

[todras]

Declaration are super dense and luxurious. They need some work, because they need a lot of product and they are very greedy and don't like to give up lather - not that it matters, because you have way too much any way.

This is true for my Franklin (30mm B2) no doubt about it but I have found the 27mm Jefferson and Theodore (B2's also) have much better flow through, I agree though they are packed very tight and enjoy an almost ridiculous density. The Franklin is a soap monster, if I want to go 'full Adelaide' I lather for 2-3 mins with the Franklin and it just eats soap like there is no tomorrow. Even now as it's breaking in more I still have to load it incredibly heavy as it likes to retain lather, it's a massive brush and handle too, a real monster of in overall handle size and splay.

They all have excellent face feel though, really first class work all round and the finish on them is excellent too.