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Shortie or full-size SR - Which would be best for a beginner?
- Thread starter rbscebu
- Start date
Full size, no question in my mind. This way his muscles will develop the proper memory, he will develop the correct technique, everything will be learnt the proper way; I honestly don't see any benefits, nor do I find it pedagogically sound to to recommend starting with easy and then go to more difficult, not on this particular matter anyway.
He gets used to a shortie, first time he pics up a full size his balance will be out of whack, there will be a whole lot of metallic real estate he won't know what the heck to do with, etc...
He gets used to a shortie, first time he pics up a full size his balance will be out of whack, there will be a whole lot of metallic real estate he won't know what the heck to do with, etc...
rbscebu
Mr. Strop
@Mastropiero, a very valid point that I had not considered. Thank you.
You're very welcome mate 
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I've always assumed the little Tom Slide (bottom) is a shorty with a 2.5" blade instead of usual 3" although I have not been able to find any evidence of original size.
It is very easy to maneuver around the face although I don't reach for it very often despite it being a good edge
In addition to holding less lather than a full blade it also covers less area and I like to get a really good efficient pass on the flats that cleans all the lather in its wake.
It is very easy to maneuver around the face although I don't reach for it very often despite it being a good edge
In addition to holding less lather than a full blade it also covers less area and I like to get a really good efficient pass on the flats that cleans all the lather in its wake.
I'm almost tempted to score another Gold Dollar, knock an inch off it (and grind a Spanish point) and have a go with it for a face-only job. But I agree with @Mastropiero, it probably isn't the best of ideas to dumb down a beginner's blade. Personally, I would make that one with a nice smile, but I've noticed @rbscebu prefers his blades to be devoid of expression. 
Different strokes and all that... 
Different strokes and all that...
rbscebu
Mr. Strop
I also enjoy a nice smile, like Mona Lisa, but I don't like blades laughing at me. If a blade wishes to smile, it should also have a smiling spine-wear..... Personally, I would make that one with a nice smile, but I've noticed @rbscebu prefers his blades to be devoid of expression.
Mouette
Member
I bought a JJ Shorty from the UK - it turned out to be a Gold Dollar cut down and re-scaled. The blurb that came with it list a JNAT progression, but on opening the box, you could see the scratches on the bevel with the naked eye. I found the shave to be very rough also.
Straight out of the box, I wouldn't recommend this razor for a beginner. The model I bought was the pointy one with the barbers notch - also not suitable for beginners. When I re-hone it, I will mute the point. Sorry Rbscebu, I am letting the team down muting mu points but I just find it easier.
As mentioned I am going to re-hone it and see if it improves. I personally prefer a full size razor and don't think the short ones are all that much better for beginners. Having said all of that, I expect it to be a good shaver once I fix it up.
Just my $0.02
Straight out of the box, I wouldn't recommend this razor for a beginner. The model I bought was the pointy one with the barbers notch - also not suitable for beginners. When I re-hone it, I will mute the point. Sorry Rbscebu, I am letting the team down muting mu points but I just find it easier.
As mentioned I am going to re-hone it and see if it improves. I personally prefer a full size razor and don't think the short ones are all that much better for beginners. Having said all of that, I expect it to be a good shaver once I fix it up.
Just my $0.02
rbscebu
Mr. Strop
John June of JJ Shaves in the UK writes highly of shortie SR for those who are learning.
www.jjshaves.com
JJ Shorty New Standard | JJ Shaves
JJ Shorty New Standard Following an upgrade in equipment and a lot of experience making the JJ Shorty I have now made a new standard version. The JJ Shorty pairs perfectly with a JJ Shorty strop, which is hand made in Scotland and uses British vegetal leather. The strops are zero profit to...
www.jjshaves.com
Substance
Member
at the end of the day it doesn’t matter on the length really, as you learn to suit what you have,
a lot of Japanese str8S can be around 60mm edge and Kamisoris can get down to 35mm,
so use what you have, the issue I have found when honing batches or razors is changing sizes during shave tests, start from long go to shorter edges, less chance or cutting ears from muscle memory when do the one handed off side brail shave areas
a lot of Japanese str8S can be around 60mm edge and Kamisoris can get down to 35mm,
so use what you have, the issue I have found when honing batches or razors is changing sizes during shave tests, start from long go to shorter edges, less chance or cutting ears from muscle memory when do the one handed off side brail shave areas
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Mouette
Member
Update on my JJ Shorty
I gave it a full re-hone on Saturday starting with my 1k Shapton. I had a look at the edge with my loupe before I started and there were a few wee chips along it. My usual progression is the 1k Shapton, then I use a Norton 4000/8000 combo stone, followed up by a 12k Shapton. I haven't got a finishing stone yet as I find the 12k Shapton doesn't give a shave ready edge, so I finish on pasted leather strops - using the Dovo green and black paste. I find I get a really good edge off the strops. Want to try an Akansas but trying to get these things into Aus isn't easy.
The JJ Shorty honed up pretty easily, although bevel is a bit uneven on one side. Still don't have the experience to know why this is happening or how to correct it but it honed up ok and by the time I had finished it was treetopping and the HHT was good.
Oh, and Rbscebu, I did mute the point - Yes, I took the easy way out!
The shave test was good - still not convinced that shortened razors are the way to go but it was fun mucking about with it and gave a good shave.
cheers
I gave it a full re-hone on Saturday starting with my 1k Shapton. I had a look at the edge with my loupe before I started and there were a few wee chips along it. My usual progression is the 1k Shapton, then I use a Norton 4000/8000 combo stone, followed up by a 12k Shapton. I haven't got a finishing stone yet as I find the 12k Shapton doesn't give a shave ready edge, so I finish on pasted leather strops - using the Dovo green and black paste. I find I get a really good edge off the strops. Want to try an Akansas but trying to get these things into Aus isn't easy.
The JJ Shorty honed up pretty easily, although bevel is a bit uneven on one side. Still don't have the experience to know why this is happening or how to correct it but it honed up ok and by the time I had finished it was treetopping and the HHT was good.
Oh, and Rbscebu, I did mute the point - Yes, I took the easy way out!
The shave test was good - still not convinced that shortened razors are the way to go but it was fun mucking about with it and gave a good shave.
cheers
rbscebu
Mr. Strop
@Mouette, you can source a very good hard black Arkansas 8" x 2" x ½" from wnun5791 on eBay for AU$125 plus AU$14 postage. He is based in Jingili, NT. According to some SR shaving friends who have bought these from him, he provides great customer service.
I have one of his HBAs that I bought second hand for AU$80 including shipping from a knife sharpener in Sydney who didn't know how to use it. It finishes an edge beautifully.
As for an uneven bevel on one side, that is only aesthetics, shouldn't affect the shave quality. Provided your whetstones are flat, the unevenness is most probably caused by uneven wear on the grinding stones when the blade's hollow was being ground.
I have one of his HBAs that I bought second hand for AU$80 including shipping from a knife sharpener in Sydney who didn't know how to use it. It finishes an edge beautifully.
As for an uneven bevel on one side, that is only aesthetics, shouldn't affect the shave quality. Provided your whetstones are flat, the unevenness is most probably caused by uneven wear on the grinding stones when the blade's hollow was being ground.
StratMan
Member
cant believe SR topics have perked my interest 
looking forward to learning to hone/sharpen.. I have two whetstones atm one a 1000 other 8000 and sounds like I need something to finish with. Any recommendations of good value for money balsa diamond strops? how much should I expect to pay and where to source from?
looking forward to learning to hone/sharpen.. I have two whetstones atm one a 1000 other 8000 and sounds like I need something to finish with. Any recommendations of good value for money balsa diamond strops? how much should I expect to pay and where to source from?
Getting those anywhere is never easy. Mine was bought by my dad (not for razors) when I was very young, and I remember him mentioning he had to pay quite a lot for it then. (And sorry, not for sale
)
rbscebu
Mr. Strop
@StratMan, what you have now will not be sufficient to properly hone a SR. If you insist on just using whetstones, a bare minimum would be a 400/1k, 3k/8k and a finisher of about 12k.
You will also need some gear to lap them flat and maintain them flat. For that I suggest a 300mm x 300mm smooth ceramic floor tile and some sheets of about 120 grit W&D.
An economical way into honing is to use lapping films. That setup should set you back about AU$50 total and be good for honing up about 10 to 30 SRs. Then you will need another set of lapping films (under AU$30). Using lapping films takes out the whetstone flatness and inconsistent abrasive particles variables.
What you learn using lapping films will hold you in good stead if you later decided to move on to whetstones.
You will also need some gear to lap them flat and maintain them flat. For that I suggest a 300mm x 300mm smooth ceramic floor tile and some sheets of about 120 grit W&D.
An economical way into honing is to use lapping films. That setup should set you back about AU$50 total and be good for honing up about 10 to 30 SRs. Then you will need another set of lapping films (under AU$30). Using lapping films takes out the whetstone flatness and inconsistent abrasive particles variables.
What you learn using lapping films will hold you in good stead if you later decided to move on to whetstones.
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StratMan
Member
sounds good @rbscebu cheers. I've plenty of tiles lying around from work around the house so I'll go to Bunnings and get some W&D
makes sense to learn to use lapping films before deciding on a decent finisher
might as make a set of lapping films, so what you reckon 120 grit and higher? 240? 320?
makes sense to learn to use lapping films before deciding on a decent finisher
might as make a set of lapping films, so what you reckon 120 grit and higher? 240? 320?
rbscebu
Mr. Strop
@StratMan, you can read all about put a set of lapping films together here:
Any questions can be asked in this thread:
Honing on a Budget (using lapping films)
Slowly but surely we are starting to see a few more wet shavers getting into the gentlemanly art of SR shaving. They are hopefully starting off with a SR that is truly shave-ready and a clean leather strop. With good technique in both shaving and stropping, they should be able to get a few...
paste-and-cut.com.au
Any questions can be asked in this thread:
Honing on a Budget (using lapping films)
Slowly but surely we are starting to see a few more wet shavers getting into the gentlemanly art of SR shaving. They are hopefully starting off with a SR that is truly shave-ready and a clean leather strop. With good technique in both shaving and stropping, they should be able to get a few...
paste-and-cut.com.au
What's your usual go-to finishing stone? The one you feel gives you consistent good edges?
I know you are a big fan of finishing on diamond paste, but I am just curious about the stones you use.
rbscebu
Mr. Strop
@Mastropiero, I have hard black Arkansas, vintage coticule/Belgium blue and Adahee #12000 whetstones.
My preferred finisher whetstone generally depends on the blade material and the type of finish that I desire. Based on just keenness (using the CdM as the test), the HBA works best for high carbon steels and the Adahee is best for my stainless (harder) steel blades. The coticule give the more comfortable edge to shave with but doesn't achieve the keenness that I prefer. Others I have honed for find a similar result but it could just be my honing technique.
CdM = Coupés de Maître (aka fool's pass or ATG on the upper lip)
I CdM every shave.
My preferred finisher whetstone generally depends on the blade material and the type of finish that I desire. Based on just keenness (using the CdM as the test), the HBA works best for high carbon steels and the Adahee is best for my stainless (harder) steel blades. The coticule give the more comfortable edge to shave with but doesn't achieve the keenness that I prefer. Others I have honed for find a similar result but it could just be my honing technique.
CdM = Coupés de Maître (aka fool's pass or ATG on the upper lip)
I CdM every shave.
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